Machiavelli
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We seem to be a country founded on the basis of what is good for the majority that is now ridiculously concerned about the voice of the minority. If we are all equal then why does the majority still lose?
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Pledge of Allegiance Ruled Unconstitutional?
- Thread starter Machiavelli
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psychonaut13
New Member
the whole point is this...
NO ONE should be forced to recite a pledge that states there is a god if they don't believe there is a god. if we MUST make our children say this pledge it should be worded in such a way as to allow for varying religious beliefs. just because the founding fathers of this country believed in god doesn't mean they were blowing smoke up everyone's ass when they penned the rest of the constitution that clearly states that religious freedom is not only encouraged but demanded. the idea that christians have such a problem with freedom of religion being enforced blows me away. most of the time their stance is that this is a "christian country founded by christians"....but they fail to remember WHY this country was founded to begin with...to avoid religious persecution.
as a non-christian, i don't find offense to the pledge having the word god in it as i haven't said the pledge since about 9th grade. i have always stood out of respect, but i pledge my allegence to NO government or country..only to myself, my family, my friends, and to the Dharma.
i was happy to hear that this went through the courts and came out victorious. very happy actually. i think it's bullshit that some much of the legislation in this country has been pushed by fundamentalists with too much bible in their heads. legislation of any one moral set does nothing more than destroy the very idea that caused this country to come into being.
NO ONE should be forced to recite a pledge that states there is a god if they don't believe there is a god. if we MUST make our children say this pledge it should be worded in such a way as to allow for varying religious beliefs. just because the founding fathers of this country believed in god doesn't mean they were blowing smoke up everyone's ass when they penned the rest of the constitution that clearly states that religious freedom is not only encouraged but demanded. the idea that christians have such a problem with freedom of religion being enforced blows me away. most of the time their stance is that this is a "christian country founded by christians"....but they fail to remember WHY this country was founded to begin with...to avoid religious persecution.
as a non-christian, i don't find offense to the pledge having the word god in it as i haven't said the pledge since about 9th grade. i have always stood out of respect, but i pledge my allegence to NO government or country..only to myself, my family, my friends, and to the Dharma.
i was happy to hear that this went through the courts and came out victorious. very happy actually. i think it's bullshit that some much of the legislation in this country has been pushed by fundamentalists with too much bible in their heads. legislation of any one moral set does nothing more than destroy the very idea that caused this country to come into being.
JustAnotherStayAtHomeDad
New Member
perhaps you could benifit from a bit of background on the pledge? writen by an American Socialist Francis Bellamy:
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
so don't go thinking that this "slogan" is from out founding fathers, it was writen by a religous zellot just over 100 years ago. It is very posable to re-revise the document and remove the "under God" without gutting the meaning of the mantra. Besides, everyone knows My God has a bigger dick than your God! Yall would be better off to just accecpt that and move on.
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.
The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:
It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.
Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'
A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bibliography:
Baer, John. The Pledge of Allegiance, A Centennial History, 1892 - 1992, Annapolis, Md. Free State Press, Inc., 1992.
Miller, Margarette S. Twenty-Three Words, Portsmouth, Va. Printcraft Press, 1976.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more information about the history of the Pledge, be sure to also read the three online chapters of The Pledge of Allegiance, A Centennial History, 1892 - 1992 by Dr. Baer:
The Youth's Companion's Pledge
American Socialists and Reformers
For answers to frequently asked questions about the Pledge and/or for a book order form for this six chapter book, please see www.PledgeQandA.com
Do you have other questions or comments about the "short history" or about the chapters shown above?
Please contact:
Dr. John W. Baer
10 Taney Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21401
(410) 268 - 1743
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so don't go thinking that this "slogan" is from out founding fathers, it was writen by a religous zellot just over 100 years ago. It is very posable to re-revise the document and remove the "under God" without gutting the meaning of the mantra. Besides, everyone knows My God has a bigger dick than your God! Yall would be better off to just accecpt that and move on.
Sorry bud, we werent saying it was from our founding fathers. We are talking about how the government is trying to use something FROM our founding fathers to get rid of something that isn't. By the way, I can't read something that is that long. I'm a 50 yr old ADHD.....no comprende. You fellas need to work harder if you're going to try to bring the pupper down. Just fess up.....its all bullshit has no home in this democracy. Just fess up to it and stop trying to inundate me with more bullshit. I don't care if the pledge of allegiance came from Martha Washington's own asshole.
psychonaut13
New Member
you can't read something that long? maybe you choose not to make yourself do it. that'd drive me crazy if i couldn't read a book or something like that.
BillyTheKid
New Member
All i can say is wtf. If your atheist and cant handle that in the pledge of allegece just drop out life gets harder then that lol. Anyways i dont even stand up or say it anymore . just could care less
psychonaut13
New Member
billy the point of the matter is that this has been a struggle between ppl that are consitutionalists and the neo-cons for a long time. it's not always about the battle your in right now, but forging forward for the victory of a cultural war.
if the religious right and the neo cons had their way, christianity would be the national religion with all others being force from the borders of this country. their moral stance would be the only one considered valid, and you could forget about freedom of speech...no cursing young man...it's a SIN! not to mention a certain violent video game we all enjoy. porn? forget about it. art/literature that questions anything? burned.
you'd go right back to the way things were in the witch hunting days.
the ignorance of the youth today really gets to me.
if the religious right and the neo cons had their way, christianity would be the national religion with all others being force from the borders of this country. their moral stance would be the only one considered valid, and you could forget about freedom of speech...no cursing young man...it's a SIN! not to mention a certain violent video game we all enjoy. porn? forget about it. art/literature that questions anything? burned.
you'd go right back to the way things were in the witch hunting days.
the ignorance of the youth today really gets to me.
psychonaut13 said:the whole point is this...
NO ONE should be forced to recite a pledge that states there is a god if they don't believe there is a god. if we MUST make our children say this pledge it should be worded in such a way as to allow for varying religious beliefs. just because the founding fathers of this country believed in god doesn't mean they were blowing smoke up everyone's ass when they penned the rest of the constitution that clearly states that religious freedom is not only encouraged but demanded. the idea that christians have such a problem with freedom of religion being enforced blows me away. most of the time their stance is that this is a "christian country founded by christians"....but they fail to remember WHY this country was founded to begin with...to avoid religious persecution.
as a non-christian, i don't find offense to the pledge having the word god in it as i haven't said the pledge since about 9th grade. i have always stood out of respect, but i pledge my allegence to NO government or country..only to myself, my family, my friends, and to the Dharma.
i was happy to hear that this went through the courts and came out victorious. very happy actually. i think it's bullshit that some much of the legislation in this country has been pushed by fundamentalists with too much bible in their heads. legislation of any one moral set does nothing more than destroy the very idea that caused this country to come into being.
If your going to throw the Dharma into it you better study up alittle. The Buddhist teaching follow along the same lines as christianity.
psychonaut13
New Member
true. i'm well aware of the duality of my stance with budhism. i smoke, drink, and do drugs.
but all three of those help me keep one of the most basic tenants of the Dharma....no killing. hehhehe
besides that, anyone with any knowledge of the Dharma would also understand that it clearly states that there are many paths to enlightenment. not just budhism....and considering that budhism has no connection to say any kind of "crusade" like christianity does....i doubt very seriously that it would be the same type of situation. another of the basic tentants of budhism is TOLERANCE! which christianity has none of for anything or anyone that doesn't believe the way it does.
but all three of those help me keep one of the most basic tenants of the Dharma....no killing. hehhehe
besides that, anyone with any knowledge of the Dharma would also understand that it clearly states that there are many paths to enlightenment. not just budhism....and considering that budhism has no connection to say any kind of "crusade" like christianity does....i doubt very seriously that it would be the same type of situation. another of the basic tentants of budhism is TOLERANCE! which christianity has none of for anything or anyone that doesn't believe the way it does.
psychonaut13
New Member
i have actually. one of the first things i studied about budhism is how it connects with other religions.
i spent 6 months studying budhism at a budhist community in the woods of SC. learned a great deal about it, and decided there were only parts of it that i needed to take with me. which is why i don't call myself a "budhist"....i've never taken "refuge" nor do i intend to.
i have made vows about what i will and will not do with my life. and when i say that i pledge my allegence to the Dharma...i'm not necessarily saying to the budhist teachings but to what the word Dharma means...which is truth.
i spent 6 months studying budhism at a budhist community in the woods of SC. learned a great deal about it, and decided there were only parts of it that i needed to take with me. which is why i don't call myself a "budhist"....i've never taken "refuge" nor do i intend to.
i have made vows about what i will and will not do with my life. and when i say that i pledge my allegence to the Dharma...i'm not necessarily saying to the budhist teachings but to what the word Dharma means...which is truth.
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psychonaut13
New Member
the word dharma means truth in sanscrit. just as the word himalayas means expansive space.
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